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Neal Katyal | The American Dream Has Become a Global Nightmare - 8/8 | Oxford Unionthank you,so look


Updated on Jan 17,2023

Neal Katyal | The American Dream Has Become a Global Nightmare - 8/8 | Oxford Union

thank you,so look I recognize I have the hardest,job of the night of all eight speakers I,stand between you and the booze at the,bar,our case is very simple our friends,didn't meet their threshold they have to,show the American dream has become a,nightmare a nightmare,and sure they sang beautiful songs,they had a list of grievances that goes,back to 1945,but did they really convince you did,they prove the case that the American,dream is now a nightmare,ladies and gentlemen the American dream,is not a nightmare the nightmare comes,from those people who would give up on,it,Donald Trump Donald Trump lost,your nightmare is that he might win,again,he's going to jail baby,we we have a clear point it's the Biden,point it's the senator Brown point a,nightmare compared to what what's the,alternative to the United States if you,think the American dream has become a,nightmare you certainly haven't spoken,to anyone who has waited and waited for,an H1 Visa,my friend Professor Kennedy says the,world is suffused with ignorance and,bigotry in the United States is guilty,of contributing to it,that a nightmare does not make that's,not a nightmare that's a problem we're,not defending that the United States is,perfect all we have to do is convince,you it's not a nightmare and it's not,it's not Ms day the number of startups,it's the fact that America is a startup,that's how we're built America's always,been that way borrowing from the best of,the world taking the best adapting them,giving freedom of speech freedom of,assembly freedom of religion all of this,so that we can have debates very much,like this,and the Constitution itself recognized,my friend referred to Federalist 51 they,recognized that men aren't angels and,they've had an article 5 an amendment,process to change it so the painful,exclusions of women from the right to,vote in African Americans from being,fully human all of that changed our,Founders put that they laced that into,the Constitution,a nightmare,look at our team look at who's on our,side Colonel vinman's parents came from,Ukraine in 1979 my parents came brought,to America from India in 1968 they came,for one reason just because they knew,they could land on its Shores and be,treated fairly Senator Brown's here he's,parents go back all his family goes back,to 1620.,ninth generation New Hampshire uh,resident,we're here together defending this,because that's what America is the,national motto e pluribus unum out of,many come one we've always been young,Scrappy and hungry that's what America,is,now I mentioned my parents we can do it,on Twitter,um,I mentioned my parents and that reminds,me of my very first Supreme Court case I,was representing Bin Laden's driver in,challenging Guantanamo which is,something that my friend Israel,mentioned earlier and I was challenging,it as a legal black hole and the,Pentagon wouldn't let me go and meet my,client for a long time the driver for,bin Laden but I ultimately got down,there and he said to me he kicked,everyone out of the room he had been in,solitary confinement for 10 months,hadn't seen another human soul and he,kicked everyone out of the room and I,think he's going to yell at me and he,looks at me and he smiles and says I,just have one question for you why are,you doing this your last client was Al,Gore and I remember thinking I paused,and I thought to myself God you know,what is the answer to that and,ultimately about a minute into it I gave,him this answer I said look my parents,came here from India they didn't come,here because of the quality of the,sports teams or its soil they came here,for once simple reason they could land,on its Shores and be treated fairly not,perfectly but fairly and better than any,other country on Earth and that had,always been my experience and the,founders of our 14th Amendment,representative Bingham wrote the equal,protection clause in the equal,protection Clause doesn't just guarantee,equal protection to Citizens it,guarantees it to persons why because,Bingham said we have to overrule the,worst line and the worst Supreme Court,case in American history the line in,Dred Scott versus Sanford which says,only citizens have constitutional rights,14th Amendment says everyone in America,has constitutional rights and so I argue,that case my first case in the Supreme,Court and I won it even with the very,conservative Supreme Court Guantanamo,was declared illegal in a violation of,the Geneva conventions and the,Constitution and rights would now apply,at Guantanamo and I remember I went out,after hearing the decision to the Press,cameras and at 500 of them on the,Supreme Court Plaza and they're all,asking what does the decision say what,does it say what does it mean it's 184,pages I hadn't read it yet but I will,tell you Verbatim what I said to the,Press I said but here's what happened on,this day,you had the lowest of the low this,driver to Bin Laden a third grade you,educated you many and he brings a,lawsuit not just against anyone but the,nat

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Moss: Biden classified docs case 'has no similarity to what Trump did'

Moss: Biden classified docs case 'has no similarity to what Trump did'

the New York Times is reporting this,tonight about the Biden documents the,documents which date to Mr Biden's time,as vice president were found by his,personal lawyers on November 2nd when,they were packing files at an office at,the Penn Biden Center for diplomacy and,Global engagement according to the White,House officials did not describe,precisely how many documents were,involved what kind of information they,included or their level of,classification the White House said in a,statement that the White House council's,Office notified the National Archives,and Records Administration on the same,day the documents were found in a locked,closet and that the agency retrieved,them the next morning attorney general,Merrick Garland has assigned the U.S,attorney in Chicago appointed by Donald,Trump John lausch to review the,situation Andrew Weissman Neil katiel,are back with us and joining us now is,Bradley Moss and National Security,attorney and former clerk for the,National Security archive uh Bradley,boss let me begin with you uh,indications are that it's probably uh,less than a dozen documents uh that the,lawyers who found them immediately,contacted the White House counsel's,Office the White House counsel's office,immediately contacted the archives the,archives picked them up the next morning,and then Merrick Garland decided to have,a trump appointed prosecutor review the,situation uh what do you make of what we,know so far,yeah Lawrence so the number of documents,isn't really what stands out to me,because candidly any document with,classification markings not in a proper,location is a bad thing they never,should have been there but what's,different here and why I'm telling,everyone to slow down with these,comparisons tomorrow logo into what,Donald Trump is facing is the absence of,any obstructive or concealment efforts,uh Joe Biden's team his lawyers did,exactly what you do in this situation,you call up the National Archives you,forward it to them you get them to pick,it up immediately that's what they did,the justice department is playing this,very properly you know recognizing the,political sensitivities they're having,the US attorney you know in Chicago take,a look at it that's fine this has no,relation no similarity to what Donald,Trump did playing games on Mar-A-Lago,concealing things having lawyers submit,statements with false information to the,justice department this needs to be,investigated but this does not appear to,be anything like Donald Trump did uh,Andrew Weissman uh your reaction,sorry a number of First principles are,important so at the end of the day,depending on what the facts are in both,situations it's really important that if,the facts are the same or close the two,should be treated exactly the same,that's what it means to be a nation of,laws whether you like one person or,dislike another person is irrelevant in,terms of how you treat them under the,law but I agree with Bradley in terms of,what we know so far I'd say a huge,fundamental difference in addition to,what Bradley talked about is intent,um there is a difference in the law,about how you treat somebody who,accidentally knocks over a glass of milk,and somebody who takes the class and,throws it at a person one is something,that is dealt with under the criminal,law and the other The Accidental,spilling is not dealt with under the,criminal law at all so it is really,important for people to understand what,it means to be a crime it means that you,acted knowingly and with intent and the,crime here is knowingly and with intent,to improperly retaining classified,information the evidence of that as,Bradley talks about is in Spades with,respect to the former president and so,far what we've learned with respect to,the documents that President Biden had,when he was former president,um doesn't appear to be anything close,to the you know anything like that it,just seems like the inadvertent,retention of documents at Han Discovery,it was exactly what you'd want somebody,to do he handled it exactly the way you,would and not as Bradley said doing,everything you can to obstruct the,return of those documents uh Neil katiel,instead of what Trump supporters will,will want to call an example of,everybody does it it seems that this,situation can be used to argue and in,contrast uh the difference between the,precisely proper way to handle a,discovery like this and the criminal way,to handle a discovery like this,that's exactly right Lawrence there's a,way in which this story tonight actually,may reaffirm the need to prosecute,Donald Trump and in order you know the,Republicans are already marching on TV,saying look everyone does it and so on,but I think we need to know three things,one what these documents are two how,Biden reacted to it and three as Andrew,is saying what is the level of Criminal,Intent I suspect there's going to be,more differences than similarities,between Biden and the Trump stolen,Mar-A-Lago documents and at a minimum I,have no doubt

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Neal Katyal: Congress 'Right' To Subpoena Mueller Report | The Beat With Ari Melber | MSNBC

Neal Katyal: Congress 'Right' To Subpoena Mueller Report | The Beat With Ari Melber | MSNBC

House Democrats are not waiting on,attorney general bill Barr to decide,which parts of the Moller report he,wants to release instead voting this,Wednesday to press ahead in subpoena the,full report there's intense scrutiny on,how Barr has run this process over the,10 days since Muller concluded his probe,some of bars actions were required under,DOJ rules like notifying Congress that,first Muller finished his probe and,second that the DOJ never formally,overruled Muller during his work other,actions by Barr some of the more,controversial aren't required by the,rules nor forbidden by them like,releasing those four quotes that,everyone's been discussing from the,Moller report or bar adding his own,conclusion about obstruction now these,are pretty serious questions but bars,apparent effort to go beyond what Muller,found - apparently helped Trump has also,become a new punchline on SNL on the,charge of obstruction of justice we have,not drawn a definitive conclusion but I,have Trump's clean as a whistle,free last free at last in conclusion it,is my hope that this report will be made,public with a few reductions,hello redactions we're gonna black out,everything except the words no and,collusion,now no skilled Attorney General is going,to ever announce a cover-up the emerging,fight here is shaping up to be about,redactions and what the rules do and,don't require if there is a dispute over,what bar releases and what he holds back,through actions if there are no rules,requiring Barr to turn over the entire,report what can Congress do to get it we,need an expert on high-stakes litigation,and these actual DOJ rules to answer,these questions and I'm thrilled to tell,you we have that expert tonight former,DOJ official Neil Koch all who wrote the,special council rules argued dozens of,cases before the Supreme Court as,President Obama's acting Solicitor,General and who joins us tonight as a,new MSNBC legal analyst for the launch,of a new special series on the beat,opening arguments with Neil catch-all,thank you for leading this new series,here on the beat,Thanks I'm psyched to be here let's,start with the big question when you see,the fight over how bar is proceeding his,ability to do redactions and what the,rules require what's important here well,I think what's important is that bar is,going well beyond the rules he's kind of,improvising on his own in lots of,important ways he's kind of like I mean,freestyling and in ways that I think are,really damaging you've talked a little,bit about this already on your show,tonight so Muller says he can't decide,whether or not there's obstruction of,justice or not I won't exonerate do not,exonerate effectively and debar takes it,on himself to say oh no I'm gonna clear,the precedent so that's one thing,another thing the redactions that you've,been talking about and that we just saw,the SNL skit about I mean you know Barr,provided four little quotes from the,Muller report not even one complete,sentence from it and it raises,suspicions I mean you know it's like,those movie reviews which is like you,see on the poster greatest movie ever,but the full quote is this is not the,greatest movie ever or something like,that and I don't know what to make of,this but I do know that Barr wrote a,very tendentious memo back last summer,and so that does I think raise the,concerns among the American public what,does this report say and when can we see,it I didn't know Neil Koch I would bring,a Rotten Tomatoes analysis to what bar,may be doing but it I think makes it,clear to people that's a question of why,those quotes in,why the New York Times has responded to,all of this with a big deep dive looking,at how maybe bar is shattering what had,been norms sense the Watergate era and I,want to put on the screen something that,that I know you and I were discussing in,preparation for tonight's reporting walk,us through what we're looking at here,great so I think one way of thinking,about our the American legal system is,that there's different ways we constrain,our government one is the Constitution,another is laws passed by Congress but a,third and maybe the most important are,constitutional norms of etiquette just,they're not actually written down in a,formal legal rule they're how presidents,behave so presidents don't fire,attorneys general or FBI directors who,are investigating them presidents don't,interfere with criminal prosecutions at,the Justice Department and say prosecute,my enemy or don't prosecute my friend,and special prosecutors in attorneys,general turn over their reports to,Congress in full that's what happened in,Nixon that's what happened in Clinton,and here we've got something else,last week Barr wrote this letter this,four-page letter to the hill saying well,there gonna be a whole bunch of,categories of things I'm not going to,turn over and he started with two,categories early in the week he wound up,with for next week we might be at 8 or,16 or whatever and and that's the part,where you s

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Neal Katyal on the search at Mar-a-Lago

Neal Katyal on the search at Mar-a-Lago

hi neil hey how are you,wow well this is really big news um,and of course anytime i need perspective,on something like this it's hard to hear,me you're saying adriana so maybe i'll,just should i go like that maybe or lift,it up a little bit can you neil can you,hear me okay great,just wanted to ask you,oh wait now,what,it was to this news and what it means,um it's very very very big news,so if we just take out all the legalese,katie and just think about it as you and,me like you're hanging out at your house,and,all of a sudden,fbi agents show up armed,and they say we're coming into your,house and they don't take no for an,answer,and they storm into your house,and they have a signed document by a,federal judge that says they have the,permission to do this and then they even,go and break into your safe like at the,end of that you'd be calling me and,saying i need a lawyer and something,really serious has happened and that's,basically what's what what's happened,here so you have a federal judge you,signed up this is not random prosecutors,you know local prosecutors or something,acting on their own it's the united,states justice department our top law,enforcement agency,getting an approval from a federal judge,to say we need to go do this we need to,come into this home so that's like very,rare to get in any circumstance and,never happen before now,oops,wait neil we just lost your audio for,some reason i'm not quite sure why,that's okay now i got it you faded out,could you do that again,yeah now i got you okay i got this,lawsuit for a second i know that they,broke into the safe they found um,if by the way if anyone has questions,and for neil,uh please just write them in the,question section um i think neil's back,now um so they found a lot of classified,documents in his safe documents that,should never have left the white house i,understand there's something with kim,jong-un involved,there may be other sort of classified,documents what are you hearing about,what was in that safe and what should,not have been in that,so you're actually telling me reporting,that i don't know that about what's or,what was in the safe so we do know the,new york times is reporting that this is,about the search warrant was about,classified documents that were spirited,off to mar-a-lago,i don't know,what was in the safe or what was outside,of the safe that might have also been,classified um but i can tell you this,you know i used to be national security,advisor of the justice department,and then had another job at the just,department which involved very highly,classified information there is a,culture,of intense secrecy around these,documents you can't bring them anywhere,um indeed so much so like when i was,offered a job at the white house i said,no because i wanted to be able to bring,my work home like that's like the most,standard operating procedure in this,classified information environment and,you get repeated briefings on how you'll,go to jail if you mishandle stuff in any,way and indeed like you know sandy,berger who was president clinton's,national security adviser and someone,who was just an incredible,incredible national security official,went and did that some years later and,he got prosecuted for it so this is a,big deal it's a big deal even if you're,a big person like the national security,adviser or the president so if he did,this if you're right in saying their,classified documents about north korea,or whatever i mean it is an unforgivable,thing it's a prosecutable thing it's a,jail offense it's not something that,just you know you get a slap on the risk,this is a big big deal now again i don't,know if it's classified or not when you,are the president and you mishandled,documents there's a defense to you which,is i am the president so i have,declassification authority inherently,as part of my constitutional suite of,powers but if you're a former president,you got no such argument whatsoever you,know i think what i was referring to is,jackie alemany who is a reporter for the,washington post had reported last,february that the national archives had,to retrieve boxes of trump white house,records from mar-a-lago that were,improperly removed from the white house,now again this was in february the items,included correspondence with kim jong-un,that's where i got that piece of,information and you know it was,interesting and his statement that he,made,on true social his social media um,platform he compared this to watergate,he also compared it to,hillary clinton scrubbing emails and i,think you need to probably,explain,why these two things are nothing like,what has happened today or what happened,actually on monday because my,understanding is this took place,on monday and this is monday,this is monday monday morning,morning,so so on trump and hillary clinton pot,kettle black i mean he ran his entire,the only argument he made in 2016 was,mishandling of classified information,and what she was doing was using a,server that that's

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Neal Katyal: Obstruction Case Against Trump Is ‘Very Strong’

Neal Katyal: Obstruction Case Against Trump Is ‘Very Strong’

what is your take on sort of the state,of the various and now seemingly,interconnected probes,well nicole great question and forgive,my voice today uh i don't have covid but,i have something i couldn't miss this,topic though and i,wanted to share a little bit of what we,know at the washington post number one,there's a good reason donald trump,appears to be frowning um furrowed brow,at his golf course the other day while,there are a lot of conspiracy theories,floating around about why he was there,you know his mood is pretty obvious,he has reason to be un,unhappy and displeased he is on multiple,fronts under investigation and he knows,based on all of the subpoenas flying,around and some that were actually,returned including mark meadows,is,the request by doj for text all these,things flying around have given the,department of justice a lot of,information he must know by now as well,nicole that,somebody in his inner circle somebody,close,to him close to him at mar-a-lago close,to him in his white house has been,cooperating with the department of,justice to make clear that there was a,high degree of certainty that they would,find classified records still at,mar-a-lago after donald trump's lawyers,insisted they'd done a diligent search,and none were to be found,this um,is clear i think from the amount of of,activity going on that the department of,justice is a lot further along with the,straight-up case as we refer to it at,the washington post the straight-up case,of potential obstruction potential,retention and concealment of government,records then they are on the place where,there's a lot of subpoenas flying around,and that is,was donald trump or were some of his,aides and allies engaged in a seditious,conspiracy to start that that pretty,frightening insurrection at our capital,on january 6.,neil to carol's point it's such a good,and nuanced observation um,the stealing of documents was something,that could be known by the archives they,know what they had they know what is,missing as do the intelligence,communities themselves in terms of what,their work product was all of it gets,checked out and usually checked backed,in but the obstruction case which is,what,far-right legal analysts keep returning,to people like john you and bill barr,and chris christie,it has to be aided,by witnesses or documents,that suggest that perhaps the or it,would seem that it is aided by someone,who can point them to surveillance,footage by someone who could say,there's still more by someone who could,say it's not all in the storage room,check the office what do you make of the,strength of the obstruction case,uh it's very strong and from the very,start of that search,i and i think most people have worked,the just department have said nicole,they must have a source or a source is,on the inside it's just too hard to,think they would have known to go in,know where exactly to go in and get,these documents so um you know so i i,almost certainly think that there is a,source for sources on the inside,and i also think that donald trump,himself recognizes that politico just,reported that the lawyer that donald,trump hired chris kais is getting paid,three million dollars for this um and,just you know i've handled a lot of the,biggest cases in the entire system three,million dollars is an extraordinary,extraordinary amount of money to do a,case if you talk to the general counsel,of any company any large company it'll,say maybe a couple of times we've done,that and paid that much for a case but,that's a lot that means there's one of,two possibilities possibility one is,that this lawyer,who was the former florida solicitor,general is demanding a super premium,because he thinks after he represents,donald trump in this case he's never,going to get work again that's option,one and option two is there's so much,legal work to be done and it transcends,just this documents and this obstruction,case because those two things together i,don't think can get you to three million,dollars i do think it's kind of,remarkable that trump does at the end of,the day manage to find new legal counsel,when virtually every attorney,who's gone near him thus far has wound,up the source of a federal probe or,ethics violations or this and that but,you know three million dollars evidently,has talked to at least one person,well and carol i mean is nils talking,the three million dollars may very well,have come from the big grip which is,also now under doj criminal,investigation so with trump it's you,know the dog is usually chewing the tail,um,what do you make though of the fact that,this development of mark meadows turning,over to the justice department really,just being responsive to a subpoena all,of the material that the congressional,committee had but it is high level,really sort of off the record,communications i think we have some of,liz cheney reading what those text,messages include as part of one of the,public hearings let's play that,but we have evidence of many o

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Neal Katyal joins Katie for a live conversation on the Supreme Court

Neal Katyal joins Katie for a live conversation on the Supreme Court

everybody,it's me coming to you from aspen and i,thought i would do an instagram live,with our favorite friend neil katiel,because i know how you all know love,know and love neil i hope you can hear,me i hope the reception is okay,the question is um,i've gotta wait for neil let's see if i,see him hold on we're gonna talk about,the supreme court all sorts of stuff i'm,in a gondola right now i have had,a a tequila so um,fair warning and let's see um let's see,if i can find neil hold on,hey wait a second that's it,uh we're here for the ideas festival,here she got the tequila,i know you're doing a panel about the,supreme court tomorrow,oh no you're not really not doing a good,job here i can't say that's okay anyway,i know you're doing a panel about the,supreme court um,so much to talk about someone told me,rick hassan who is do you know rick,hassan he's a legal scholar from uc,berkeley i don't know yeah i think,yeah some california south california,school my sister teaches yeah some,california school hi everyone and he,basically said the supreme court in the,next couple of days are going to deliver,some really um,pretty more controversial decisions what,have you heard about that what do you,know about that yeah yeah it can't be,more controversial than what we've done,between the overruling of blue versus,wade yeah and the guns decision which,was an extraordinarily frankly,ridiculous opinion in my view that um,basically gave a concealed carry right,to people across the country so tomorrow,is the last day of the term it's going,to end at about 11 a.m and then justice,breyer will retire at noon to be,replaced by katanji brown jackson um,but i think there are two big decisions,still left out one is this decision,called west virginia versus epa and it's,about whether the federal government can,regulate greenhouse gas emissions and,this is frankly very scary i understand,that they're going to say,it can't,well we don't know for sure i mean you,know i always hope spring's eternal for,me um but um if you listen to the oral,argument yeah i think the worry is that,they're going to try and end the federal,government's ability to restrict,greenhouse gas emissions,uh probably yeah i think that's what,it's looking like from the oral argument,again hope springs eternal maybe they'll,do something better there's also a,decision expected about gerrymandering i,understand do you know anything about,that i don't i think there was an,emergency motion on gerrymandering,coming up from i think louisiana that,was decided yesterday so then there's,the north carolina gerrymandering case,which is mine um which is,yeah so they're,whether to take that case or not and,that has this whole question of whether,state courts can have any role in,gerrymandering or election disputes as a,whole concert has been trying to get rid,of that and throw everything that the,state legislatures which is disastrous,given this things that are happening,kind of,under the radar about things they're,doing in preparation for the 2024,elections and in some states even the,midterms right that's exactly right,katie so i mean what's been going on is,a lot of gamesmanship by one political,party in the state legislatures in the,in the kind of folks who count elections,the board of elections and things like,that so state you know secretary of,state all those different positions,and so there's a real worry that if the,republicans win this argument in the u.s,supreme court it means there's no court,review over what states will do and or,what these board officials will do and,that is a frightening thought i mean,literally they are going to the supreme,court to say you know you the you know,florida supreme court the louisiana,supreme court you're not allowed to tell,us anything about the your own election,and that's pretty crazy it's insane all,right just getting back to roe v wade,because obviously a lot of my followers,are very,uh concerned and cared deeply about the,overturning of precedence thank you are,you doing that for me thank you your arm,is longer um we're coming to you from a,gondola in aspen i know how random right,everyone we're asking ideas we're not,we're not skiing yeah we're not skiing,oh,i'm just showing them that oh okay,that's good yeah,yeah nice job mueller,but anyway any update since we last,talked about overturning ruby wade uh,president biden and vice president,harris have come out strongly against it,but any movement in terms of legislative,remedies for codifying the right,reproductive rights in general i mean,first of all the decision's,heartbreaking and every day that goes by,i look at it again and i'm like god this,is just such a travesty and a betrayal,of,what we are as americans um,there's never been a supreme court,decision where their rights have been,taken away has there yeah not like this,certainly i mean you know like the,voting rights act is one in which the,supreme court did,take some voting rights away from people,back in 2013 in a case

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DOJ Lawyer Neal Katyal: Mueller Can Ask To Indict Donald Trump | The Beat With Ari Melber | MSNBC

DOJ Lawyer Neal Katyal: Mueller Can Ask To Indict Donald Trump | The Beat With Ari Melber | MSNBC

as Bob Muller keeps racking up these,indictments putting heat on the Trump,White House some are asking whether this,probe could ever lead to the most,existential question in our system of,government can a prosecutor in the,executive branch indict the head of that,branch a sitting president during the,Nixon era Watergate prosecutors,determined that a president could not be,indicted in office only after he left,office but lately many critics of this,president say yes it is I think,constitutional to die - sitting,president I mean the the bottom line,legal issue is the president is not,above the law my view is a sitting,president can lawfully be indicted to,deny categorically that a president can,can be indicted is to say that that,president is above the law now those are,interesting opinions including from to,current members of Congress but this,question will not be resolved by,anyone's personal opinion what matters,here are the written legal authorities,and there really are two big ones here,the first as always is the Constitution,which creates the congressional process,to remove a president for high crimes,and misdemeanors but before anyone gets,anywhere near there the second written,Authority is the DOJ rules that,authorize the special counsel the rules,that gave Rod Rosenstein that power to,appoint Moeller in the first place after,Jim Comey's dramatic firing and they,govern all the big calls in this case,like how much autonomy and money Miller,gets whether a final report goes public,the documentation and of course any,question about indicted a sitting,president,now if Muller ever wanted to consider,that he'd have to get through Rosenstein,and a Justice Department opinion back,from the Clinton era which does state,you can't indict the president it's from,an office of legal counsel inside the,DOJ and that is what Eric Holder was,referring to when pressed on this very,issue by Rachel Maddow I think some,fairly persuasive arguments that can be,made that a president can be indicted,now you know the the the controlling,opinion at least at this point is the,one from the Office of Legal Counsel,which says that that in fact is not not,correct the control,part so there you go the Constitution,and the DOJ rules governing Miller so,what are those authorities mean is that,the end of it where those DOJ rules,meant to stop someone like Miller from,ever going beyond that memo,what would the author of those original,DOJ rules say I mean that that would be,interesting to find out right now well,the man who wrote those rules and who,served as Barack Obama's top lawyer at,the Supreme Court arguing over 30 cases,winning an Obamacare case serving as,Acting Solicitor General he is here,tonight Neil Koch all former acting,Solicitor General under President Obama,thank you for doing this,such a pleasure ari if a council a,special counsel like Muller thought,there was grounds to indict a president,one how does that work with him in,Rosenstein and to to the rules that you,wrote mean that he is restricted from,doing that by that previous DOJ memo so,I think the first thing to think about,is just how extraordinary this is before,getting into your question I mean the,conversation is moved from is Russia,hoax or something like that to can,President Trump be indicted and,comparisons going back to Watergate and,Nixon and that's not a good sign for,President Trump as people start,comparing him to Nixon and looking at,Nixon there are precedents the way that,I think this unfolds in practice is that,Muller will let's say that Muller has,the goods that the president has,committed crimes he then has to think to,himself what independence do I have well,the special counsel regulations though,written in 1999 basically say Muller,you're under the supervision of the,Deputy Attorney General who's the acting,Attorney General for this case rod,Rosenstein now he'll then say to rod you,know I maybe want to indict the,president but there's this office of,legal counsel this prior opinion from 20,years ago that says I can't do I have,permission to do so the regulations say,Muller you're bound by DOJ policy but,you can seek exceptions and so that's,what I expect he would do so let me read,from that again we're reading from,something that I don't know I'm curious,if when you wrote it you knew it would,become so central to,a big issue in the country but it says a,special council shall comply with the,rules procedures policies of the,Department of Justice and that memo that,Eric Holder and you have cited says the,indictment of criminal prosecution of a,sitting president quote would be,unconstitutional which seems like good,news for any president including this,one to ask you the very narrow legal,point is your view that at a basic level,that means that doing so would be,against DOJ rules under under what you,wrote well I just remember the,regulations also say that the special,counsel can seek a departure from the,established DOJ policies with the,permission of t

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Neal Katyal On The Case For Impeaching President Donald Trump | The Last Word | MSNBC

Neal Katyal On The Case For Impeaching President Donald Trump | The Last Word | MSNBC

it is decision time as much of America,takes a break and celebrates,Thanksgiving President Trump in the,impeachment committees have some major,decisions to make over the coming days,White House officials will spend their,Thanksgiving weekend up against a Sunday,deadline to decide whether to,participate in an impeachment hearing,next week that is to be led by the House,Judiciary Committee in a letter to trump,Judiciary Committee Chairman Jerry,Nadler gave the White House a deadline,of 6:00 p.m. this Sunday to let them,know whether Trump or a lawyer,representing him plans to appear at the,hearing which is scheduled for December,4th that is next week Politico reports,that the president's involvement seems,unlikely at this point quote as of right,now people close to President Donald,Trump on the White House staff and on,Capitol Hill do not believe he will send,a lawyer to participate in next week's,judiciary impeachment hearings as is his,right but nailing down this White House,is like trying to tack jello to a wall,they are ever-shifting,and they hardly stay on the same page on,trivial matters let alone decisions of,the utmost import Trump and his,Republican allies have long argued that,the impeachment process is not fair in,part because of what claims that that,they would have without legal,representation that Trump would not get,due process and it's not just the,president with a big decision to make,Democrats on the House Intelligence,Committee are deciding how to present,the evidence in their committee report,that is expected to make the case for,impeaching President Trump televisions,Committee Chairman Adam Schiff staff is,now working to compile the evidence,which will then be transmitted to the,House Judiciary Committee shortly after,lawmakers returned from their holiday,break this according to the New York,Times and that leads us to the biggest,decision of all the Judiciary Committee,is starting to decide whether to move,forward with formal articles of,impeachment against Trump and if so what,those articles would exactly be our next,guest has some thoughts on what those,articles could look like in his new book,impeach the case against Donald Trump,former acting Solicitor General and,MSNBC contributor Neil Katya lays out,what he believes are three high crimes,that he says the president is quote,clearly guilty of they are this number,one abusing the public trust by,soliciting foreign interference in the,2020 presidential election number two,abusing the public trust by engaging in,bribery repeatedly through his quid pro,quo exchanges with president szalinski,of Ukraine number three of using the,public trust by obstruction of justice,in the investigations of his conduct,adopting an unconstitutional view of,executive power joining us now is neo,Katja whose new book impeach the case,against Donald Trump came out just this,week Neil thank you for joining us,appreciate you being here I want to get,into the arguments you're making this,book but first I want to talk basic,strategy with you because we laid out,some major decisions on both sides that,need to be settled in the days ahead,one that Democrats appear to be making,right now this is from the New York,Times on Democrats deciding to move,forward quickly with the next steps here,from The Times the decision the press,ahead quickly means that Democrats are,making a calculated decision to forego,opportunities to obtain more testimony,and records that are relevant to their,inquiry a risk that was underscored,hours after they announced their plans,the decision in other words Neal not to,wait for weeks maybe months here for,courts to compel whether it's material,or witness appearances and to go forward,strategically do you think that is a,smart move for Democrats to make here a,hundred percent I think it's the right,move Steve and you know this is a big,argument in my book which is the book,trilogy tries to set out the clear,simple case for what Trump did and why,it is kind of the height of an,impeachable offense and that evidence is,all there and it starts with that,transcript of the president's phone call,with the president of Ukraine on July,25th,now sure would there like to be when we,like to have the testimony of ambassador,Bolton and a whole bunch of other people,yeah but all of that is gravy as we,think about tomorrow it's all stuff you,don't actually need to make the case,it's helpful yeah but you know you don't,need it so that's point one and point,two is this White House is engaged in,unprecedented obstruction I mean in many,ways even worse than President Nixon,during Watergate,and so you know they've got every single,executive branch employee from going and,testifying and so I think the Democrats,calculation is look we can go to the,courts we're gonna win in the courts but,it's going to take us some time to do,that and so instead let's just go full,steam ahead with the evidence we got,which is frankly overwhelming and we,know this really because the Whit

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